Ep. 5 – Owner’s Manual Part Two: Find and Replace

President Clinton: [00:00:00] With this profound new knowledge, humankind is on the verge of gaining immense new power to heal.

Francis Collins: It’s humbling for me and awe inspiring to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book previously known only to God. What a profound responsibility it is to do this work.

Antoine: We go to probably two and three appointments a week sometimes.

Jesse Eubanks: This is Antoine Sartin again. He’s talking about his daughter Callie.

Antoine: Five to six to seven, eight appointments a month.

Faith Stults: Sickle cell isn’t one problem. It’s a maze.

Jesse Eubanks: Morning meds, evening pills, blood work, paperwork, phone calls, insurance.

Antoine: I used to tell my guys at work, they’d be like, oh, he called in today.

Oh, he’s calling in today and I would tell them when I come back to work, I will quit this job in the [00:01:00] heartbeat to be there for my child. I will quit today.

Faith Stults: And eventually all those appointments, all those bills, all that daily care, it catches up.

Antoine: You’re on Medicaid to cover these expenses, but though it comes with a price to be on that you can’t work.

But, you know, there’s things that I would love to be doing and, you know, being a, a golf caddy, going into the field of training, going back to training athletes like I used to do, traveling the world, you know? But I can’t do those things because I’ve decided to make a financial sacrifice to make sure that I’m there for her at the drop of a dime.

Jesse Eubanks: Antoine can’t plan like other parents because with sickle cell, a normal day can flip.

Antoine: One day she can be fine, and then literally five minutes later she can be ill.

Jesse Eubanks: Each time you start to think, maybe we’ve turned a corner, maybe this is the stretch where she just gets to be a kid.

Antoine: But [00:02:00] unfortunately, life just doesn’t work like that.

Jesse Eubanks: And after enough days like that, you start asking a different question. What if there’s a way out of this maze, a way to cure illness at the source?

Faith Stults: In the last decade, an advancement in medicine emerged so profound, it changes what we think is possible. If the human genome is the instructions, this new technology is find and replace.

Jesse Eubanks: Tonight on Wonderology, part two of Owner’s Manual. We’ve learned how to read our DNA and now we’re learning how to rewrite it to see what it can heal, what it can alter, and whether the people who need it can access it.

Faith Stults: We’re asking the question, who do we become if our power outpaces our wisdom?

Jesse Eubanks: I’m Jesse Eubanks, a storyteller and journalist.

Faith Stults: I’m Faith Stults, a science educator.

Jesse Eubanks: So let’s get curious.[00:03:00]

Once we learn to read the human genome, what power did that unlock?

Michael Kalberer: I was experiencing underwater sensations or things that I would look at would appear to be underwater.

Jesse Eubanks: Michael Kalberer was a kid when the world started looking different. Everything around him looked slightly submerged and the distortion, it did not go away. So, he was taken to a specialist.

Michael Kalberer: Has anybody ever diagnosed you with a renal degenerative disease?

Faith Stults: This was a prediction.

Michael Kalberer: Borrowing medical advancements, you’re probably going to slowly and permanently lose your sight.

Faith Stults: It didn’t take long for the world to fade.

Michael Kalberer: I was officially labeled as legally blind at the age of 12.

Jesse Eubanks: Here he is talking to Fox Five, New York.

Michael Kalberer: My central vision was very obscured, varying between a Q-tip and dime.

Jesse Eubanks: Even picking up a [00:04:00] glass of water became difficult.

Michael Kalberer: My visual field was so constricted that , my muscles would tense up and I would tense up when I was trying not to spill it.

Jesse Eubanks: The story for people like Michael always ended the same way. But in 2020, that ending suddenly did not feel inevitable anymore.

Michael Kalberer: I was coming home from a meal with a friend

and I said, I see pink. And, she’s driving,

she pulls over and she says, yeah, you see the sunset.

Faith Stults: His vision, which had only ever run one way, had a chance to change course. How? The answer starts somewhere microscopic.

Jesse Eubanks: In the mid 2000s, scientists studying bacteria noticed short sequences in their DNA strands with no obvious function. At first, they seemed like [00:05:00] meaningless repetition.

Faith Stults: Until someone compared them to viral DNA. They matched fragments of viruses the bacteria had survived. The bacteria had taken mugshots.

Jesse Eubanks: Which meant that the bacteria weren’t just defending themselves. They were keeping records, a kind of genetic, most wanted list.

Faith Stults: And when the virus returned, the bacteria Hented it down and cut it out with molecular scissors. A type of built-in protein that slices the virus right out of the DNA.

Jesse Eubanks: That system sat in petri dishes for years, but then in 2012, two researchers asked a different question.

Faith Stults: What if you could guide those scissors? What if you could send them to any stretch of DNA?

Jesse Eubanks: So, they tried it and to their amazement it worked. [00:06:00] And suddenly, DNA wasn’t just something we could read. It was something that we could change.

Faith Stults: The tool became known as CRISPR.

MEDIA — PBS NEWS HOUR: It’s been called the Scientific Breakthrough of the Year, and a development that could revolutionize medicine. It’s all about a way of editing genes known as CRISPR.

MAYO CLINIC VIDEO: In a document, if we suspect we’ve misspelled a word, we can use the fine function to highlight the error and correct it or delete it. Within our DNA, that function is taken on by a system. Call CRISPR-Cas9.

Faith Stults: A way to target a precise stretch of DNA.

Jesse Eubanks: Find it, cut it, and then let the cell repair the break.

Faith Stults: For decades, if you found a mistake in your DNA, that was it. A typo in a book already printed. CRISPR changed that.

Jesse Eubanks: CRISPR’s been used to treat muscular dystrophy in [00:07:00] dogs to edit cholesterol genes in monkeys and in humans to reprogram immune cells to fight cancer. But, these edits were done outside the body cells removed, edited, and then returned.

Faith Stults: For Michael, the cells that need fixing are inside his eye. No one had ever used CRISPR directly inside a living human.

Jesse Eubanks: Michael volunteered.

Michael Kalberer: This is tremendous opportunity. What do I have to lose? Without this procedure I’m going to go blind anywhere.

Jesse Eubanks: In September, 2020, surgeons injected a solution beneath his retina.

Faith Stults: Inside it were billions of harmless viruses carrying gene editing instructions. Then, they waited.

Jesse Eubanks: A few weeks later.

Michael Kalberer: I remember a day in late Eptember where I was able to see what I would describe as perceptible, just [00:08:00] noticeable differences between the height of a sandwich and the height of potato chips on my plate. The underwater sensation is now gone in my right eye.

Faith Stults: This is a reporter talking with Michael.

REPORTER: Do you see me now?

Michael Kalberer: Yes.

REPORTER: What do you see?

Michael Kalberer: Your hair, but I can’t see your facial face.

REPORTER: What color is my hair?

Michael Kalberer: Brown.

REPORTER: You’re right.

Jesse Eubanks: As for getting something to drink,

Michael Kalberer: I can grab it a little bit easier because my eyes relax my brain.

But if I don’t get a single thing more, I’ve already, I already consider, uh, victory.

Jesse Eubanks: For years, the line pointed one way and now it bends. We have become editors of our own instruction manual.

Faith Stults: But, if we can change it, where’s the line?

Jesse Eubanks: By 2016, one scientist decided to see just what CRISPR could really do. He crossed a line that no one had crossed before. [00:09:00] What he changed, we are still trying to understand. We’ll be right back.

Welcome back to Wonderology, Jesse Eubanks.

Faith Stults: Faith Stults.

Jesse Eubanks: Before the break, we followed what CRISPR can do. At its best, a new kind of medicine, one designed around a person’s genes.

Faith Stults: We have become people who can fix typos in our own instruction manual, but we may also have become people who can introduce them.

Jesse Eubanks: November, 2018. A video starts spreading online. A biophysicist in China is making an announcement.

MEDIA – JIANKUI HE – ANNOUNCEMENT: Two beautiful little Chinese girl named Lulu and Nana came crying into the world as healthy as any other babies a few weeks ago.

Jesse Eubanks: At first, it sounds ordinary, [00:10:00] just a birth announcement. Twin girls, Lulu and Nana. But that’s not what shocks the scientific world.

CNN CLIP: A line has been crossed that should not have been crossed.

It’s very disturbing. It’s inappropriate.

Oh, this is Hege.

Jesse Eubanks: Because Lulu and Nana weren’t just born. Their DNA had been edited before they were born.

Faith Stults: And when people hear that: DNA edited before birth, the question is immediate.

What does that even mean?

Jesse Eubanks: To understand we need to go back.

Faith Stults: Before the video, before the twins. Back to when Jiankui He is still young.

MEDIA – JIANKUI HE – ANNOUNCEMENT: Okay. Thank you. Uh, my name is Jiankui He uh, you call me JK.

Jesse Eubanks: 2011. He is a postdoctoral researcher at Stanford. He looks young, nervous. Excited

Faith Stults: because even [00:11:00] then he’s imagining a future where biology isn’t just studied, it’s designed.

MEDIA – JIANKUI HE – ANNOUNCEMENT: And uh, only with that we could design real complex and useful organisms.

Thank you.

Jesse Eubanks: Designing organisms. At the time, that sounds like the future.

Faith Stults: But a few years later, CRISPR appears and suddenly the future is here.

Jesse Eubanks: By 2016, CRISPR’s everywhere labs use it to study disease dead cells to alter animals,

Faith Stults: but their work is guarded by one clear line editing human embryos and implanting them to begin a pregnancy because that’s not treating a patient that’s altering the start.

Of a human life

Jesse Eubanks: around this time, ha reaches out for advice [00:12:00] from Stanford Bioethicist, William Herlbut.

WILLIAM HURLBUT – WORLD SCIENCE FESTIVAL: I realized very quickly that he did not have much of a background of thought on ethical issues, so I was trying to get to know him a little better. Seed in ideas and concern.

Jesse Eubanks: Herlbut believes embryos are the earliest stage of human life and he’s trying to slow He down.

They meet, they talk for hours.

WILLIAM HURLBUT – WORLD SCIENCE FESTIVAL: I did not understand that he was pushing quite so fast.

Faith Stults: He hears the caution, but he also has a story in his head. A story where he’s helping.

MEDIA – JIANKUI HE – ANNOUNCEMENT: They are needing me to help them to find a cure for the disease for themself or, for their next generation.

Jesse Eubanks: Years earlier, He walked through a place that made HIV feel like more than a diagnosis.

MEDIA – JIANKUI HE – ANNOUNCEMENT: I visit a vineyard in central province of China.

Jesse Eubanks: In the 1990s. People in that region [00:13:00] sold blood for cash, but the collection process was not sterile. Needles were reused, blood pooled, and as a result, HIV spread.

Faith Stults: So many people were infected that the area became known as an HIV village. A community of stigmatized outsiders.

Jesse Eubanks: He walks to it later. Meets families, meets kids.

MEDIA – JIANKUI HE – ANNOUNCEMENT: Even if they are healthy, public schools refuse to take them.

Jesse Eubanks: Healthy children shut out from an education, from a future. Not because they were sick, because HIV had touched their home.

Faith Stults: They inherited the stigma.

MEDIA – JIANKUI HE – ANNOUNCEMENT: So that’s really sad and I wanna do something to change that.

Jesse Eubanks: So when CRISPR arrives, ha starts thinking. What if you could stop HIV before a child is even born.

Faith Stults: There’s a gene called CCR-5. [00:14:00] Think of it like a doorway. HIV uses it to get inside cells, but a small number of people carry a mutation that shuts that door. They’re naturally resistant to HIV.

Jesse Eubanks: So He decides to recreate that mutation using CRISPR. In embryos.

Faith Stults: And once you do it in an embryo, it’s not one organ. It’s every cell for the rest of that child’s life. And if they have kids someday, it passes on.

Jesse Eubanks: In 2017, He moves forward anyway. In secret, without public disclosure, without global consensus, without clear oversight.

Faith Stults: His team recruits HIV, discordant couples. The father, HIV positive. The mother, HIV negative.

Jesse Eubanks: They’re told it’s part of an AIDS vaccine project. They’re offered free IVF where doctors fertilize an egg outside the body [00:15:00] and then place the embryo in the uterus.

Faith Stults: But here’s the ethical hinge. Modern medicine can already prevent HIV transmission to children. By sperm washing, antiretroviral drugs, the risk can be reduced to nearly zero. So this wasn’t a last resort. It was an upgrade.

Jesse Eubanks: But helping prevent HIV in children wasn’t the only motive.

WILLIAM HURLBUT – WORLD SCIENCE FESTIVAL: He was under a lot of pressure in the environment he’s in. He he, he works in Shenzhen and there’s this concept called Shenzhen speed. Everything’s happening fast.

There’s lots of push for scientific discoveries and young scientists in China under pressure, as they are elsewhere.

Jesse Eubanks: CRISPR

Faith Stults: They target CCR-5, but it doesn’t go according to plan. The edit doesn’t create the mutation expected. [00:16:00] Instead of creating the known mutation, the repair process produces something new.

Jesse Eubanks: Aversion No human has carried before. A mutation, no one recognized something entirely untested in humans. He implants the embryos anyway.

WILLIAM HURLBUT – WORLD SCIENCE FESTIVAL: And I did not know that he had implanted embryos, although the last time I met him, I strongly suspected it.

Faith Stults: A pregnancy begins.

Jesse Eubanks: October, 2018. Twin girls are born. He gives them pseudonyms.

MEDIA – JIANKUI HE – ANNOUNCEMENT: Named Lulu and Nana.

Faith Stults: And this is the part that leaves scientists in shock. If something goes wrong, you don’t find out in a lab, you find out in a child.

Jesse Eubanks: Days after He releases his YouTube video, he travels to Hong Kong, the second [00:17:00] international summit on human genome editing. Many of the people who built the field are in the room.

Faith Stults: And now the person who used it on babies is walking to the microphone.

MEDIA – WSCethics: Please can you, um, allow him to, um, speak without in interruptions.

Jesse Eubanks: You can hear the tension in the room.

MEDIA – WSCethics: Um, as I said, I have the right to just cancel the, the session if, if there’s too much, um, noise and interruption.

Jesse Eubanks: He paces behind the moderator. Then, he starts explaining what he did when he finishes the audience, presses him for answers.

MEDIA – AP ARCHIVE: So I think we still need to understand the motivation for the study and what the process was for informed consent and how the children will now be monitored.

And I don’t know the answers because we didn’t hear them today.

Faith Stults: For years, the rule had been clear. Not yet.

Jesse Eubanks: Now the rule has been broken.

MEDIA – AP ARCHIVE: He didn’t [00:18:00] answer properly most of the questions. In particular, the question about why was this worth doing? Was there any medical basis for doing it? I don’t think he answered that.

Jesse Eubanks: Within days, Chinese authorities shut the project down. His university distances itself, an investigation begins, and in December, 2019,

MEDIA – WION: the scientist has been sent to prison for three years.

Faith Stults: He goes to prison. The twins disappear from public view and information about their health becomes tightly controlled.

Jesse Eubanks: But the real consequences didn’t go to prison because the babies already exist. Somewhere in China, Lulu and Nana are growing up with a genetic change that no human lineage has carried before.

Faith Stults: And we don’t know yet what that will mean for them or for the children they may have one day.

Jesse Eubanks: And once you start thinking about this, the [00:19:00] questions start getting much bigger.

Faith Stults: For most of human history you got the child you got. Now, we can test embryos, rank genetic risk, choose which ones get implanted.

Jesse Eubanks: CRISPR pushes that frontier further from treating disease, to preventing disease, to potentially rewriting traits, and companies are already exploring that edge, offering what they call genetic optimization.

Selecting embryos, not editing them yet, but ranking them for predicted traits like height, eye, color, even cognition.

Faith Stults: Critics call them designer babies.

Jesse Eubanks: But the combination of this type of selection, along with CRISPR’s ability to edit genes, offers a glimpse of where this leads. In the 1997 film, Gattaca, a couple sits with a geneticist discussing their upcoming pregnancy.

The movie Gattaca: You have specified hazel eyes, dark hair, and uh [00:20:00] fair skin. I have taken the liberty of eradicating any potentially prejudicial conditions: uh, premature baldness, myopia, alcoholism, and addictive susceptibility, uh, propensity for violence. Obesity.

Faith Stults: The parents hesitate. Removing disease is one thing, customization is something else.

The movie Gattaca: You want to give your child the best possible start. Believe me, we have enough imperfection built in already. No, your child doesn’t need any additional burdens. And keep in mind, this child is still you, simply the best of you. You could conceive naturally a thousand times and never get such a result.

Faith Stults: Ray Bradbury once said, “science fiction is really sociological studies of the future.”

Jesse Eubanks: After serving three years in prison, He was released in April of 2022. He now lives in Beijing. His passport is confiscated. He holds [00:21:00] no formal academic appointment. But, he says he has returned to gene editing research. This time? On mice, not humans.

Faith Stults: He insists he was simply ahead of his time. Meanwhile, Lulu and Nana remain out of public view.

Ha has also said a third child was born later. The health of the children has never been publicly confirmed. So this isn’t just a story about one scientist crossing a line. It’s a story about what happens after.

Jesse Eubanks: Because now the power is real. And after you watch someone use it recklessly in a way that wasn’t necessary, you start thinking about the people who actually need it.

So we have to ask another question

Faith Stults: in scripture. Wisdom isn’t just knowing what we can do, it’s knowing the right thing to do. In a complicated moment when a technology can rewrite the code of [00:22:00] life, who gets access to that power?

Jesse Eubanks: Stay with us.

Wonderology, Jesse.

Faith Stults: Faith

Jesse Eubanks: CRISPR can edit DNA,

Faith Stults: find genetic errors, fix them.

Jesse Eubanks: So now we ask when a cure becomes possible, who actually gets what?

Rebecca Seavers: I ain’t trying to brag.

Jesse Eubanks: Rebecca Seavers actually loves bragging on her children and grandchildren.

Rebecca Seavers: But my baby’s, he’s, he’s, can I say it? He’s smart. Yeah. You gotta meet ’em.

Jesse Eubanks: Rebecca has three children and two grandchildren with sickle cell. She has lived inside the maze.

Rebecca Seavers: My daughter Jessica’s in the hospital. One lung fully collapsed and other one partially. It’s called acute chest.[00:23:00]

Faith Stults: Acute chest syndrome. It can turn deadly.

Jesse Eubanks: Jessica had been in the hospital for weeks. One morning, a doctor questioned why Rebecca wasn’t there more.

Rebecca Seavers: And the doctor accused me of not being there.

Jesse Eubanks: Rebecca had been sleeping at the hospital every night, but she also had other kids at home.

Rebecca Seavers: Girl, who you talking to? I ain’t got the luxury having a a husband as a doctor like you get outta my face. I’m here, every night. I spend the night and I get up at six in the morning and go home to the West End.

I go home and I got seven other kids I gotta take care of. And if I don’t make sure these other two kids get their medicine, they’re gonna end up up here.

Faith Stults: She wished she could be there around the clock, but that wasn’t realistic.

Rebecca Seavers: Because I got the work baby, I ain’t on no section eight and no food stamps.

I gotta work.

Jesse Eubanks: The doctor saw absence, but Rebecca was holding a family together.

Rebecca Seavers: I [00:24:00] had apologized. I was so mad, and so I got in trouble. So I have learned to be more polished and be more calmer.

Faith Stults: Rebecca knows the system speaks one language. Families speak another, and if you don’t know how to speak it, your child pays the price.

Jesse Eubanks: So Rebecca learned how to translate. Today, she’s the executive director and president of the Sickle Cell Association of Kentuckyana.

Rebecca Seavers: I love it. It’s really my calling

Faith Stults: Now, she’s the one families call when the system stops making sense.

Rebecca Seavers: They’re having problems at the hospital. They feel like their loved ones not getting all the narcotics they’re supposed to be getting, sitting in the ER rooms more longer than what they should be. NIH guidelines is, you know, the first 30 minutes they should be seen.

Faith Stults: She knows the guidelines, the doctors, the tone you have to use, the [00:25:00] emotional pain.

Rebecca Seavers: My oldest daughter was telling me how lonely it is at the hospital.

Faith Stults: And now there’s something new inside the system.

News Clip: The FDA has just approved a groundbreaking treatment, a cure for sickle cell disease that uses gene editing technology.

Jesse Eubanks: In 2023, more than a century after sickle cell was first identified, there is finally a cure.

Faith Stults: Doctors remove a patient’s blood stem cells. In the lab, cRISPR edits them so they produce healthy hemoglobin. Then those cells are returned to the body.

Jesse Eubanks: Over time, they begin producing healthy red blood cells. The pain crises stop for the first time in history, a person with sickle cell can live without it. But reaching that cure is not simple.

Faith Stults: Months of preparation, transfusions, clearances, then chemotherapy to wipe out the [00:26:00] patient’s bone marrow.

Jesse Eubanks: Finally, a transplant. Weeks in the hospital, months of recovery.

Rebecca Seavers: It’s a year outta your life.

Faith Stults: A year away from work, a year of appointments, a year where someone has to stay with you every step of the way.

Jesse Eubanks: And the price,

Rebecca Seavers: and it’s millions of dollars,

Jesse Eubanks: typically more than $2 million. Insurance may cover the treatment.

Faith Stults: But not the rent, not the car payments. Not 12 months without income.

Rebecca Seavers: I had a guy, can y’all pay my rent for 12 months? No, we can’t. I’m sorry. They feel like they’re by themselves. They don’t feel like anyone’s there for ’em. They don’t feel like anyone understands them.

Faith Stults: So Rebecca makes sure they’re not.

Rebecca Seavers: That’s the most disheartening thing about it, especially when someone’s trying to cure their child but you can’t even help to the magnitude, you know they need it.

Jesse Eubanks: The cure exists, but reaching it still means navigating a [00:27:00] very complicated system.

Sickle cell helped launch the age of molecular medicine, the first disease ever traced to a single broken molecule. The discovery that helped open the door to modern genetics.

Faith Stults: And now, that same science is turning back to face the disease that helped start it.

Antoine: I truly think gene therapy is the game changer. Yes, there is a risk, but there’s also a reward.

Faith Stults: Antoine says Callie wants the treatment.

Antoine: I’ve been through the whole process. I mean, we approved for it and everything.

Jesse Eubanks: But they haven’t started yet. First, the doctors have to decide if Callie’s body is ready.

Antoine: Are they gonna have enough blood that’s compatible with her blood type?

Faith Stults: Her immune system makes compatible blood rare.

Antoine: We don’t have enough. People not donating blood.

Jesse Eubanks: For years, the maze has been [00:28:00] surviving the disease Now, the maze is getting to the cure. But, Antoine has been living toward this moment since Callie was born.

Antoine: They’ve never seen a father come prepared the way I’ve come prepared. I think about the worst case scenario, but at the same time, I trust the process and I lean on my Lord and Father to guide me through it.

Faith Stults: Now that trust leads somewhere it never led before: a consultation for a treatment that didn’t exist when Callie was born.

Jesse Eubanks: This month, Antoine and Kelly head to Cincinnati to see if she is finally ready to begin her treatment.[00:29:00]

Faith Stults: Your journey into wonder doesn’t have to end here. If today’s episode sparks something in you, we’ve got more.

Jesse Eubanks: Check out Science With Faith, our exclusive after show where Faith unpacks the deeper layers of science and faith behind each episode.

Faith Stults: Or dive into everything from nothing. Our special miniseries hosted by Jesse exploring evolution and Christian Faith.

Jesse Eubanks: Both are free and waiting for you at wonderologyshow.com. That’s wonderologyshow.com. Special thanks to Antoine Sartin, Michael Kalberer and Rebecca Seavers. Learn more about the Sickle Cell Association of Kentuckyana by visiting the SKKY.org. Some of the audio in this episode comes from interviews with NPR, Fox Five New York, Eye On the Cure and Mass Eye and Ear. Additional thanks to Matt Stevens. Wonderology is a production of Christianity Today in partnership with Bio Logos.

Faith Stults: It’s hosted by Jesse [00:30:00] Eubanks and Faith Stults. Today’s episode was written by Jesse Eubanks with Faith Stults. Science, fact checking and guidance from Faith Stults, Jim Stump and Colin Hoogerworth.

It was produced by Jesse Eubanks. Our associate producer is Mackenzie Hill. Music by Jesse Eubanks.

Jesse Eubanks: Editing by Rachel Akers, post-production by Wind Hill Studios with sound design, scoring, mixing, and additional story editing by Mark Henry Phillips. Additional music by Mark Henry Phillips and Blue Dot Sessions.

Faith Stults: Eric Petrik is the executive producer of CT Media Podcasts. Matt Stevens is our senior producer.

Jesse Eubanks: Wonderology is generously funded by the John Templeton Foundation. Explore the profound questions of life that inspire awe and wonder by visiting templeton.org.

Faith Stults: If you enjoyed this episode, send it to a friend.

Leave us a rating and review to help more people find the show.

Jesse Eubanks: God invites us to experience the awe of all these made, both the known and the not yet known. So let’s get [00:31:00] curious.

TRANSCRIPT